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Post by pk on Jun 24, 2009 11:49:55 GMT -5
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Post by mikestack on Jul 10, 2009 1:14:39 GMT -5
Doesn't this bother anyone here? I mean, the blogger can put up a cute little note like this: "This blog does not promote piracy: my goal is actually to support the artists by making their works available to the major possible number of people. I think they really deserve a larger audience than now. If you liked any of the albums buy the original CD. Support the artists" But let's be realistic here, this is a pirate site, someone ripped the CDs without permission and is providing pirated material by artists who probably need all the royalties they can get. Maybe JZ is selling high volume of his recordings, but do you really think Chris Brown is? Or Mr. Dorgan? I can't see any way how this actually promotes the musicians in any positive manner. I suppose some folks will dl this stuff and then buy the albums, but I'm betting that's 1 in 20 of the folks who actually like the material. I mean, I've always been one for tape trading and things like that, but only the stuff you can't buy. This just rubs me the wrong way. Thoughts?
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Post by Offering on Jul 10, 2009 1:42:57 GMT -5
I agree with you Mike, and, like all of us here, I always buy Tzadik releases and support Zorn in his endeavours.
That said, I realise not everyone has the money to keep up with all that comes out, and sometimes these sites would enable them to experience music, which is always a good thing. The modern age, and all that.
I will remove the link if you all want me too.
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Post by matfive2 on Jul 10, 2009 8:09:49 GMT -5
I agree to an extant Mike, but I see the point PappaWas is trying to make as well.
I will admit to having downloaded some Tzadik releases, but if I enjoy the music, I always go out and buy the CD. I'm sure not everyone has this same approach.
I always hate buying CD's without having been able to listen to them first because sometimes I don't end up liking the music at all, and then I have lost $16. This is especially the case with the music of Tzadik and Zorn.
One solution, which other smaller music labels employ, would be to provide a sample of the music on their website so that a potential customer could listen to the music prior to purchase. Maybe that would limit illegal downloads
just my 2 cents.......
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Post by DISEman on Jul 21, 2009 8:27:30 GMT -5
I see the downloading/piracy argument is alive and well... of course JZ doesn't sell the amount of recordings that Metallica do and I'm sure he couldn't ever afford their lawyers... so the abovementioned blogger should not fear any feirce litigation... he's not making any money from his illegal ventures anyway and I'm sure that in JZ's vast record collection he has a few boots tucked away
I did read that if a Tzadik artist recoups the costs of a recording (about $60k) JZ will give them another shot so its really important to make sure that if you like a Tzadik artist that you buy the legit product... if enough of you do then it ensures that they can get another go...
A few years back I purchased a few cheap Zorn CDs on Ebay - when they arrived they were on strange labels (not Tzadik) and not the same quality that the Tzadik crowd deliver in both packaging and sound... I eventually ended up purchasing the legit copies and giving my Russian boots away to interested friends who eventually purchased some Tzadik product for themselves.. I also let the company know.. hence the warning that exists at the base of the homepage so I hope I'm forgiven for supporting the Russian mafia...
I suppose that whatever path leads you to enlightenment must be the right one... I'm sure JZ is not interested in world financial domination of the music market but rather making a livelihood in music for himself and other musicians - Support your local noise arranger!
DISE (Doesn't Ignore Sonic Economics)
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Post by aghemomehga on Jul 23, 2009 4:30:20 GMT -5
"making a livelihood in music for himself and other musicians " that's the point.. I can't afford anymore to spend 20 euros for a tzadik cd in Italy to my beloved local arranger , who can't manage to have a lower price through the whole supply chain.. I spent hundreds of dollars at dear pals of DMG in NYC for a better price and a shorter chain.. But recently italian customs have been taxing these parcels more and more frequently..not considering the C02 produced to deliver the plastic discs to my player from the other side of the world The best way to match everybody interests still looks to me legal internet downloading. Full tzadik catalogue was available from emusic until a couple of years ago...then, maybe according to a legitimate question of pennylike royaltees Tzadik executives(I suppose Kazunori Sugyama himself) removed it. Now I use ITunes quite a lot where I pay a tzadik release 8.99 euros, which is quite fair even without full artwork and medium audio quality... but, again, how much of my 9 euros go to the artist and how much to Apple executives? I think Tzadik should find a sustainable technological way for its own digital avalaibility of the catalogue ( remaining in the Zorn family see what Erik Friedlander does on his site or Dave Douglas with his Greenleaf with mp3s/ lossy flacs and full pdf artworks..what do you need more!!??!! c'mon you cd feticists out there! ) to match revenues for the artists with the economical-ecological interest of their supporters. Love Luca PS: And Yes, I have been an illegal downloader, like a kid in a candy store..every good boy deserves fudge
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Post by Offering on Jul 24, 2009 0:57:52 GMT -5
I know what you are saying Ago, and I can relate. I always buy Tzadik releases, because I like to own the actual albums themselves, and I like my collection! I would say this is a common theme with Tzadik buyers, I could be wrong though.
Re your customs statement, it is the same in the UK too. Last time I ordered two discs from Tzadik, I had to pay £10 customs charge! Because the worth was over a certain amount. I now order one at a time, to avoid this!
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Post by mikestack on Jul 25, 2009 0:13:17 GMT -5
I see the downloading/piracy argument is alive and well... of course JZ doesn't sell the amount of recordings that Metallica do and I'm sure he couldn't ever afford their lawyers... so the abovementioned blogger should not fear any feirce litigation... he's not making any money from his illegal ventures anyway and I'm sure that in JZ's vast record collection he has a few boots tucked away Something of note there, I make a distinction between bootlegs and piracy. I've got plenty of bootleg recordings and I've no moral objection to trading or otherwise acquiring material that musicians can or will not make available (although in the 21st century, I think it's a "can" for the most part-- Robert Fripp got tired of King Crimson bootlegs and stopped me and everyone else by making as much material as anyone can take available legitimately). Piracy is a different issue for me though, ESPECIALLY with the small label and avant-garde guys who are simply not making a ton of money off of this. Now you're taking money out of the pocket of the artist and the label. Taken to greater lengths, this drives both out of the market. Way I see it, we're supporting a niche industry, one that is perhaps unsustainable (reference Zorn in the excellent Bomb Magazine interview where he indicated he kicks quite a bit of cash back into Tzadik to keep it running), but that attracts a serious passion from its audience. At some point, piracy can impact the operations of a company like Tzadik. I admittedly have a bit less sympathy for Sony, et.al., but I suppose the point scales to them as well.
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Post by sarahv on Jul 25, 2009 13:44:38 GMT -5
I try to refrain in general from pushing my own opinion about it on other people - like Mike, I'm anti-piracy and pro-bootleg, but with bootlegs being of dubious legality I feel like I'm not in a position of moral authority regarding piracy ;-) Some people are really quite horrified at my bootleg collection because they say it's illegal...
I know that people have some pretty good reasons to pirate (e.g. lack of money or lack of availability) but at the same time I think it is important to educate people in general about piracy especially when it comes to small artists and labels. I've been quite startled by some of the people I know IRL who are engaging in mass piracy with no particular reason to do so. People with plenty of money who would have no trouble buying it legitimately. Baby-boomers making six figures telling me about how their kids showed them how to get all this free music... it makes you realize why the music industry is so worried about it. They're going about it all wrong but it must be terrifying for some musicians to think there's a new generation growing up thinking it's totally OK to download everything. And that will impact all of us when our favorite musicians have to go get 'real' jobs and stop making music...
I think it's important not to get too complacent about it and make sure people know it can have a serious impact on smaller musicians and labels. And I think the message is more powerful coming from people like us, music fans, instead of musicians or the RIAA because it's often seen as self-serving or greedy coming from them.
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Post by matfive2 on Jul 27, 2009 14:51:37 GMT -5
it makes you realize why the music industry is so worried about it. They're going about it all wrong but it must be terrifying for some musicians to think there's a new generation growing up thinking it's totally OK to download everything. And that will impact all of us when our favorite musicians have to go get 'real' jobs and stop making music... With the internet revolution and torrent file sharing, the days of musicians being able to make a sustainable income via studio recordings and CD sales are long over. In this day and age, the real income lies in live performances. Zorn is a perfect example of this. I remember a time not so long ago when Masada played but 1 -2 shows per year, heck, Bar Kokhba Sextet hadn't performed for 6+ years until Zorn's 50th Bday residency in 2003 at Tonic. Nowadays, if your willing to travel a bit, you can see Zorn projects several times a year. So I think even Zorn has realized that live performance can generate significant revenues as well, especially in Europe where there is more support for jazz and improvised music. I for one, wish that more artists would release recordings on vinyl. I think more people would purchase recordings if they knew that early pressings could become valuable collectors items in the future. Plus I find the packaging of LP's much more aesthetically pleasing relative to the standard jewel case packaging for CDs. Now, Zorn has made an effort to diversify the packaging for his recent Tzadik releases. But Masada on vinyl would be truly amazing!
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Post by sarahv on Jul 27, 2009 15:14:47 GMT -5
When you're talking about small indie musicians like these, even live shows are pretty tough as a source of revenue. For Zorn, sure, no problem! He has a decent fan base. But for some of the smaller acts on a label like Tzadik... imagine how much it costs to have, say, a band of four musicians, traveling and staying in hotels... and imagine how much they're getting paid at the tiny venues they're likely to be booked at... they would probably lose money touring in the US. Which is why you see so many musicians sticking to NYC (where they live) and parts of Europe (where it pays enough to make it worthwhile).
There used to be a local band here that I really liked - they had a big local following - and they had to jettison half of their band members to make touring feasible, because it was simply too expensive to drag 7 people and their instruments around the country with the money they were making.
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Post by blackmud on Jul 31, 2009 5:44:52 GMT -5
I did read that if a Tzadik artist recoups the costs of a recording (about $60k) JZ will give them another shot so its really important to make sure that if you like a Tzadik artist that you buy the legit product... if enough of you do then it ensures that they can get another go... sounds an awful lot of money for 'recording costs' from this side of the planet... could you give us a reference for that info?
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Post by acephale on Jul 31, 2009 8:23:22 GMT -5
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Post by HolgerregloH on Jul 31, 2009 9:55:03 GMT -5
I did read that if a Tzadik artist recoups the costs of a recording (about $60k) JZ will give them another shot so its really important to make sure that if you like a Tzadik artist that you buy the legit product... if enough of you do then it ensures that they can get another go... sounds an awful lot of money for 'recording costs' from this side of the planet... could you give us a reference for that info? I think he means $6k. " JazzTimes: What is the average budget for the records you do on Tzadik? John Zorn: At first it was just always $5,000; now we’ve gotten a little more flexible with it. Now if someone breaks even on their first record we’ll give them $6,000. If they break even on their second record we’ll give them maybe $7,500. If they break even on their third record, we’ll up the ante a little bit. But if their first album doesn’t break even we either reduce the budget or say, “Let’s wait until this one sells more and then we’ll do a second record.” But we try to be very economical in the way we work because we can’t afford not to. The music we’re making is meant for the world; it’s meant for everybody to enjoy. But I’ve learned that some projects that I do, like the Dreamers, will do very well. We’ll sell 20-30 thousand copies of that because it’s popular music that people can really enjoy. But if I’m going to do an esoteric project about Aleister Crowley with the “Necronomicon” string quartet or something that’s really more challenging, which I’m compelled to do and these artists are compelled to do and the world needs, I’m not so naive as to think that that’s going to sell 30,000 copies. With a younger unknown artist, something esoteric like that will sell 500 or 1,000. With me, maybe it’ll sell 5,000, but it’s not going to sell 30,000. And that doesn’t break my heart anymore because ultimately this music is for the few. It’s meant for everybody, I want everybody to love it and enjoy it as much as I do, but I can see that that’s just not possible."
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Post by HolgerregloH on Jul 31, 2009 9:56:30 GMT -5
Great stuff, thanks for the link!
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