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Post by rodrigo on Apr 6, 2010 11:38:17 GMT -5
For me the thing is, before it seemed as Zorn's projects would last only one cd, like The Gift, Taboo & Exile, IAO, etc, but now he seems to be exploting them in several cds each. Not a bad thing, since he tends to expand them, see Moonchild, first expanded thematically in Astronome, then the epic Heliogabalus, and The Crucible, for me the best one, with himself on sax. The Dreamers don't seem to me to have expanded much, the basics were already stated in The Gift and I don't find much difference between Dreamers and O'o. So, on one hand it's good because if you like the music, you get to hear the groups in different settings. On the other hand, you feel like maybe he should be doing something different and innovative... But with more than 12 releases in one month you cannot ask him to be that much innovative, at some point he's due to repeat himself.
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Post by sarahv on Apr 6, 2010 14:09:43 GMT -5
Maybe it's because I come from a more conventional listening background, but I just can't understand the idea (I've heard it from others, too, not just you) that everything JZ does has to be completely different from anything else and breaking new ground constantly. There's only so much ground to break! The man has recorded countless CDs spanning a huge variety of genres. Most musicians don't have 5% of his output in an entire lifetime. How is it possible to complain that he, of all people, is not doing enough different things?
I'm not one of those worshipful "everything he does is perfect" fans or anything, I don't like quite a lot of his releases... it just seems to be asking something superhuman of him to say that he shouldn't make two or three CDs that are in the same style, if it's something he enjoys and something that sells particularly well (meaning: his fans like it too).
It would be one thing for an artist who releases a CD every 2-3 years to make 2-3 CDs that sound similar because that's 10 years of output that's too same-y. But that's not the case here.
I don't mean this to sound like I am criticizing you, rodrigo, it's actually something I've been wondering about for months since I've heard several people say similar things.
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rubsa
Junior Member
Posts: 77
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Post by rubsa on Apr 6, 2010 14:48:56 GMT -5
I think one of the main issues (not a problem really) for me at the moment is that his talent pool is so focused and it's pretty much the same musicians from project to project. I love Ribot and only use him as an example, but some years ago seeing his name attached to an upcoming Zorn cd would make me incredibly excited, but now seeing him added to Alhambra pretty much got a "oh, okay, Ribot" response from me, though maybe Alhambra is different for me since I love and prefer the trio set-up. Keeping the same core but adding Kenny on a song or two here, Ribot on a song or two here would have been much better instead of changing the format altogether and making it more rigid, layered and formulaic while removing the small group interplay, fun, freedom, jazz, etc. What started out as a nice whimsical project is now just another exotica/mysticism one.
I'll also be pretty disappointed if the next Masada String Trio is a book 2 release when there are countless other people/groups like Guy Klucevsek (who I would kill to see interpret masada tunes), Mike Patton (Fantomas book2 would be sick), Carla Kihlstedt, Steven Bernstein, and countless others out there who could add original takes to the material. I would have even expected people Ribot or Jamie Saft (who are capable of making new entries far different from the ones they already made) than the String Trio, who are amazing, but I pretty much know what it's going to sound like start to finish, and I do want Zorn to surprise me from project to project because that is what he's been doing for me for 12 or so years since I first heard Naked City.
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Post by stefanodoug on Apr 6, 2010 15:08:00 GMT -5
Maybe it's because I come from a more conventional listening background, but I just can't understand the idea (I've heard it from others, too, not just you) that everything JZ does has to be completely different from anything else and breaking new ground constantly. There's only so much ground to break! Well Sarah, you're absolutely right about this point (please forgive me if I start my post from your reply to rodrigo's one). I think that kind of Zorn portrait (wild, uncompromised, always on the fringe) is a bit worn out, old. However, I must also say that in the past (up until some years ago) JZ stressed a lot his maverick attitude like he had to constantly prove himself (which he needn't, imho). My present complaint concentrates on JZ recent focus on the exotica-like sound that seems to have possessed his latest releases:-) (rubsa could be right: JZ has been asking the same players to deal with his latest efforts: perhaps a change in the lineups would let the boredom vanish:-) The Alhambra project clearly moved from a totally different area (a piano trio) but it's pointing there now. I mean, it makes sense after all since he has probably written all that music during the same span of time so the same sounds might have been spinning through his head for a while. Personally I like a bit of exotica but not too much:-) On the other hand there might be people liking it a lot instead, no prob of course. For sure JZ releases a lot of stuff so that other musicians can find their own space through the Tzadik channel and that's a great thing.
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Post by rodrigo on Apr 6, 2010 15:30:00 GMT -5
Sarahv, I'm not saying that's my thought, I also don't expect him to break new ground on each record. I was just trying to expose the two categories (if anything Zorn-related can be classified in just two categories) which I thing his fans are assuming. So your post really expresses so acurately my own point of view. I really don't know in which category I fit, because I like when he's breaking new ground, but I sure do like when he "repeats" himself, if repetition means cds as amazing as The Crucible or Miraculous. And sure, there are lots of musicians who could record a brilliant Book of Angels entry (I'm waiting for the oud version of Blumenkranz, with what seems like an amazing group), but on the other hand, another Masada String Trio... you know it's gonna be amazing from start to finish. And that also means new songs for them to play on concert... By the way, in an interview at the time when he was launching de Book of Angels, Zorn spoke about having sent some songs to Bill Frisell... Man, I'd really love to hear that!
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Post by sarahv on Apr 7, 2010 22:36:06 GMT -5
A lot of good points... rubsa, I can certainly see where you're coming from when you have such a great list of musicians you'd love to see doing a BOA album. I would love to hear the interpretations of a lot of the people you mention, as well. I am hoping that if MST does a second one it is a somewhat different interpretation, but I guess we won't know until we hear it. stefanodoug: I am one of the people who is really enjoying the exotica stuff, I really love what JZ does with it, I love the Dreamers combination of instruments/musicians. So I guess I am one of the people liking it a lot :-) I guess with a composer who has such a varied output, it's almost a guarantee that the fans won't all have the same taste. I feel like I should pick up "Miraculous" based on people's comments here but listening to the samples it feels kind of boring to me like the first Alhambra did... rodrigo, I think you kind of hit the nail on the head - when he's spending lots of time on things we're bored by, we complain - but we like repetition when it's our favorites - for you, the Crucible, for me, O'o/Ipos, and I think just about all of us would like a "repeat" of Electric Masada...
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Post by mikestack on Apr 8, 2010 8:21:38 GMT -5
You know, I'm not sure this trend of "repeating himself" is exactly new for Zorn-- if you look at his catalog, he seems to explore ideas over the course of several releases (and them pretty much abandon them). He cranked out half a dozen game piece records in the '70s, in the mid-80s it was tribute albums, there were a pile of file card compositions in the late-80s and then of course Naked City and Painkiller in the early '90s... the list goes on.
I think the difference now is that Zorn has changed his touring model and seemingly (based on my reading of recent interviews) dedicated himself even deeper to his music. But the big difference between now and then is that the new explorations are a lot more, for lack of better word, melody-driven than the older stuff.
Truth to be told, I'm not in love with the Alhambra stuff. The first record was pleasant enough but didn't really grab me and I just can't get into ISOTM. that said, I'm also in the minority of Zorn fans who finds the file card stuff minimally interesting. I figure if one record doesn't catch my attention, there's plenty of other stuff out there.
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Post by stefanodoug on May 14, 2010 3:10:37 GMT -5
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